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You saw me?
Started by Kiers on 14 August 2008 - 7:45am
| 14 August 2008 - 7:45am | |
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Hi I think this is the right place to start a discussion like this..... I was listening to "You Saw Me" by Hillsong (It's the Saviour King album). The chorus lyrics are: You saw me when you took a crown of thorns For some reason, I found the concept of me, personally, being on Jesus' mind at the crucifixion hard to engage with. Given that he died for all our sins, could he possibly have thought of each of us individually, or is it just romanticising the crucifixion? Don't get me wrong - I'm not denying that we have a personal relationship with Jesus, or that it's wrong to say "Jesus loves me" or "Jesus died for me". I'm also not trying to argue anything about Jesus not being fully God - obviously, that would explain it, but does seem like something of a Get-Out-Of-Jail-Free answer :) I'm more coming from the angle of whether it's right for us to be putting actions on Jesus that we have no way of explaining or verifying. We *know* Jesus loves us. I guess we've all felt that from time to time in a powerful way. However, this seems to be somewhat on the subjective side. Is it supported in any theological or biblical way, or is it just a poetic representation? Am I right to wrestle with it, or is it just an indication that I REALLY didn't get enough sleep last night.... Would love to hear what you think on this - whether you agree or not, I think there's some depth to explore.... :) Kiers |
I also struggle with lyrics like that... another song that comes to mind is 'Above All' in the chorus it says...
Crucified, laid behind the stone
You lived to die, rejected and alone
Like a rose trampled on the ground
You took the fall
And thought of me
Above all
I've had a discussion with a few of the other worship leaders and with one of the ministers and I don't that on that moment on the cross Jesus would have thought about each and every one of us personally, I think he was probably thinking about humanity as a whole that he would be saving, which includes us... but then again, he is God.
I love the verses of 'Above all', but I cannot sing the chorus, i don't agree with the lyrics - and thats fine. If i don't agree with something thats being sung, i won't sing that line or the verse etc.
Our worship experience, whilst it is a corporate one in church, is also very personal. You might wrestle with it, others may see it as a very deep and personal expression of Jesus' love for them.
Blessings,
A.
Hiya K, of course you're right to question it...!! It's what we do :)
Just had a Biblegateway moment cos I was thinking that every mention of Jesus dying on the cross was corporate (i.e. for 'us') rather than for 'me', and found these verses:
John 3:16
"For God so loved THE WORLD that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Ro 8:32
He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up FOR US ALL—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things?
...both of which imply that we should be thinking about Jesus' sacrifice as something bigger than just about ourselves, however there is also:
Gal 2:20
I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself FOR ME.
... which is interesting! I think the problem still stands with that lyric and the 'Above all' one Annie quoted, in that there is still very little Biblical justification for saying that Jesus either saw me or thought of me (specifically, as opposed to thinking of everyone which includes me) on the cross. However you could argue from the Gal verse that the second half of the Hillsong lyric:
You loved me in the nails that you bore
And you blood washes over me
is perfectly fine. I don't think I have a problem with that bit certainly, in fact I think it's rather good!
www.RESOUNDworship.org
Free New Worship Songs
Hi guys
Thanks for the comments - Glad to know I'm not alone on it :)
Cheers for the refs, Matt, that certainly sets it out well. And you're right - that 2nd half is really nice. Will we see a paraphrase in a Resound song soon? Race ya.... ;)
K
================================
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www.Ascent-Creative.co.uk - free graphic design for churches
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Hey guys, an good thread here. I just wanted to throw into the mix some comments by Bob Kauflin - worshipmatters.com - and this is talking more about the "Above All" reference from Annie. Check the following post: http://www.worshipmatters.com/2007/03/qa-frid... I found it extremely helpful to see how he approached thinking this through, again not saying the song was communicating something completely wrong - but more that it wasn't communicating all that clearly and it possibly gets the emphasis wrong by not explaining the bigger picture, and if something leaves itself up for debate like this then there is probably something out there that says the same thing in a much clearer manner.
Great thread!
On the subject of whether or not Jesus thought of me individually on the cross, let me quote a few more scriptures.
John 12:27 "Now is my soul troubled. And what shall I say? 'Father, save me from this hour'? But for this purpose I have come to this hour. 28 Father, glorify your name." Then a voice came from heaven: "I have glorified it, and I will glorify it again." ... 32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself." 33 He said this to show by what kind of death he was going to die.
John 17:1 When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, "Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you.
Now it seems clear from these verses that, although Jesus' death would be the means by which he draws people to himself, at the heart of the cross, the Son's sacrifice was magnifying God's glory (and he would be glorified in his obedience to the Father).
In what way does the cross glorify God? Romans 3 says:
23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified by his grace as a gift through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. 26It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
According to these verses, the cross was designed to vindicate the righteousness of God in forgiving sins. Through the cross, the wisdom of God allowed the justice of God and the mercy of God to be reconciled, so that God could be just and the justifier of those who trust Christ.
It seems to me, then, that at the heart of the cross stands this 'divine transaction' between the Father and the Son, glorifying the justice and mercy of God, but a transaction that spills out in unimaginable benefits in the salvation of those who have faith in Jesus. I do receive immense blessings, but I am not at the centre of the cross - God and his glory is. Yes, the cross is the ulitmate demonstration of God's love to us (Rom 5:8), but I'm just not happy singing that Jesus thought of me 'above all' when he died.
Now, some may glance at this thread and say we're being pedantic. Lyrics are poetry, they may argue, and people aren't thinking about the lyrics this deeply when they're singing them. That may be true, but the thing is that songs do teach, whether we intend them to or not. And songs like this create an impression of the nature of our relationship with God. My concern is that they can feed the 'me-centred' individualism of Western culture too readily. So you're absolutely right to be asking these kinds of questions, Keirs. We need to concern ourselves with how our songs are teaching the people we're leading.
http://music.glenabbey.org.uk
Al
Wow - that's some deep thinking for this early!!
Out of all of it, I latched onto one little phrase - "I am not at the centre of the cross" - I love that. That really sums up what a lot of songs seem to suggest.
Not to say I ignored the rest of the post - just that bit jumped out...
The part about songs teaching us is a very valid point, and it was partly from thinking about that that I thought I'd raise this.
K
www.ResoundWorship.org - free new worship songs
www.Ascent-Creative.co.uk - free graphic design for churches
www.kieranmetcalfe.org.uk
Yes, it is early - the result of my young children bouncing into my bedroom full of life at 6.30am!!! Not much chance of sleeping on after that!
http://music.glenabbey.org.uk
6.30? You lucky devil.... That's an hour's lie in with our two!
Anyway - back to the topic!.......
www.ResoundWorship.org - free new worship songs
www.Ascent-Creative.co.uk - free graphic design for churches
www.kieranmetcalfe.org.uk