WorshipCentral

Good question and thoughts. Perhaps, in part, it goes back to the idea of worship being corporate, something everyone can join and share in. Although if your in your service feeling hurt, sorrow or acknowledging the struggle life can be then maybe your ability to really share in it if that is not being acknowledged is somewhat diminshed. Maybe the songs about the anguish are there but we feel they're too personal to out them into a communal Sunday worship. Surely Christ meeting us in the struggle is worthy of worshipping Him for? That's not to say that doesn't happen.
In some ways for secular musicuans writing about the hard stuff or anguish is easier because they can just 'put it out there' and it doesn't matter if a group of people can join to sing it in a comfortable way. Perhaps the more personal songs are deemed harder for larger groups of people to join. I fear I am repeating myself.
Perhaps joy, hope, greatness of Christ, sacrifeice of christ are easier to write about in a way that makes the songs accessible for all. Writing about anguish could perhaps be deemed too specific? I don't know where that thought was meant to go. Yet there are many of the Psalms that speak of anguish.
It's something I have kind of thought about fairly recently in that actually for me some of the 'hope and joy' songs are hard because that's not where I'm at - then it represents a challenge to me and reminds me of the hope I have in Christ.
As I write I'm thinking Tim's When tears fall, Jon Foreman's Autumn/Winter, Casting Crowns - Praise you in this storm, Starfield - Shipwreck. These are the few I could think of fairly speedily.

Ephesians 2:!0

Hi Marc, another good set of questions.

Secular music can start and end in lament without providing any solutions (eg hurt by 9 inch nails, creep by radiohead, actually anything by radiohead, novocaine for the soul by the Eels, petty much any blues song.) I don't know of a worship song that doesn't move at some point to the hope we have in Jesus. Should we have corporate songs that say "Lord, life is just tough sometimes and I'm struggling" and allow us to dwell on that without providing the "answer" immediately?

There are no songs that will capture where everyone is emotionally on a Sunday. On any given Sunday, there'll be people struggling, people who are rejoicing, and all sorts of in between states. It can be hard to sing celebratory songs if you're sad and and hard to lament if you're happy. That's one of the challenges of corporate worship. But worship is more than emotional response, it will mean choosing to praise (or lament) when you don't feel like it. That doesn't mean that feelings are suppressed or ignored in worship (ie I'll now pretend I'm not sad today), it's ackowledging that they are there, taking them to God, and worshipping anyway. It's not always easy!

I think that corporate worship should primarily be about the adoration of God for who he is and what he's done and is doing, although there is a place for corporate confession or lament within that. If life is difficult the best, and I think biblical, response is not simply to express the hardship (although it's vital that that is done - skipping it doesn't work), but to be reminded of the character and works of God.

Paul - congrats on saying what I wanted to. Also the reminder of the Greatness, power, wonder of God is important when we feel the hurt. It can encourage hope in you. I guess it's about trusting that Christ is in the struggle and praising him for that.

I think there is definately a place for songs of lament/anguish in corporate worship, but there's always the factor of trying to use songs that most (if not all) of the congregation can relate to...then again, we can't just ignore the un-happy songs or people. We shouldn't get to a stage where people who aren't happy feel excluded.

Looking at the Psalms, all the ones that begin in anguish end in hope, with the writer holding on to the promises God has given. I personally have found songs like Tim's When Silence Falls very helpful in times when life is hard.

(I've basically repeated what's been said already, but oh well. Good stuff guys!)

I’d agree with all your thoughts. The resolution of difficulty into hope is most definitely important. I haven’t heard many of the worship songs you all referenced and look forward to checking them out!

It is this ever daunting question of “Why” that keeps haunting me these days. Why are we more comfortable with Delirious’ “Happy Song” than we are with, well, my repertoire of known songs fails me in the other extreme (if "extremes" are even an accurate way to describe this). But it is true, as a Christian, I feel more “comfortable” with the happy joyful songs even at the expense of my experience in life. It seems to create a separation of Church and the “real world”, or at least in my own experience. Maybe I prefer that separation, because to allow God to affect the struggles I face requires I truly surrender to Him. Maybe it is a defensive mechanism? I’m not sure, and this is more of a ramble than a statement.

I wonder if worship songs were delicately and studiously written with this in mind, the separation would close. Most surely not to dwell on our sorrow but in acknowledging it maybe we could move forward? If my thoughts on our comfort with happy and joyous songs is true-- segmenting our lives and shift the locus of control from God to us --then wouldn’t a well written song cut to the heart of that? That sort of thing is talking about repentance which is the precursor of revival… an interesting string of thoughts. I’ll keep considering it, I’m not totally sure of it all still.

…I’m trying to write songs with this in mind, I put one in the songwriting clinic. But it doesn’t feel decent for congregational use. It’s been on my heart, but it is remarkably challenging to write with this in mind. This forum has been an immense help because there exists no community in my current church for these sorts of things; especially for worship. Its impossible to succeed as a worship leader if you’re all “lone ranger” and what not. So you all have been a huge help to me!!!

Marc - i think that your point on allowing God to be in control is actually quite central. When all is going nicely and we're quite content in our life both in and out of Church it can be easy to declare the glory and greatness of the Lord. However (this is from my experience) it's those moments of struggle when I seem go back to being dependant on myself, not knowing how come before the Lord or feeling that there's some sort of pressure on me to have to say, or do something.
Also I wonder if there's some sort of expectancy in us as Christians that we have to happy or joyful because of the hope that we have in the Lord and, perhaps more so as leaders, that we have to put that face on? That's bit of random thought.
Also going back again, for me, there's an element of not wanting others to see my hurt, that before God it leaves me feeling inadequate, i think is what I want to say. Yet God has been there, truly hurt at the Cross, He has been there with me and knows it all already, but it's the element of giving up what it is that hurts to another that perhaps leads us stop. I'm not sure this has really got accross what I wanted.
Also I was just thinking about couple of songs, You're not alone - meredith Andrews, He and Work by Jars of clay. Recently Work was kind of very relevent to me and it was reading those words that reminded me that it's not always easy and I'm not the first or last Christian to hurt.
The elemnt of separation between our Worship/Church and life is difficult to reconcile. In the past I have found it hard hearing people say how we can leave all that troubles/burdens at the cross and trust in the love of the Saviour at the cross (which I know but don't understand) and feel guilty that it doesn't feel that easy. Perhaps it goes back to that human thing of doing on our own. I feel that often if someone is involved inleadership this can happen all to often.

I hope this makes some kind of sense - I just wrote as thoughts came into my head.
Thanks Marc.

This thought just struck me. I'm not sure what to make of it yet.

When Jesus was suffering his worst moment of anguish, he turned to Psalm 22, and the only words we know that he quotes from it were "My God, why have you forsaken me."

You can speculate that he would have been going through the whole Psalm in is mind on the cross
and so would have got to: "All the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the LORD, and all the families of the nations will bow down before him, for dominion belongs to the LORD and he rules over the nations." But he didn't (as far as we know) verbalise any of the positive future stuff.

So, the only outward expressions from Jesus in the face of his worst sufferring on the cross were lament and obedience to God the Father. I find that a helpful thought in appraoching personal suffering. I'm not sure it helps tease out the question of personal suffering and corporate worship.

Another thought to throw into the mix is about writing such songs - suffering in any form can be very personal and specific, and hard to write about in a congregational context.

I think more songs are being written to do with struggling at the moment (or to do with finding hope in God)

I think it wouldn't be good to overly react against the 'happy' songs, or ones that don't directly address anguish, because it can be good to focus on who God is above what's happening in our own lives.

I'd agree with you Kathryn. It wouldn't be wise to shoot down the songs which express our joy in Christ, or how great and wonderful His involvement in our lives is, i.e. "Happy Songs". I'm discovering how difficult it is to have a dialogue about difficult topics in an online forum. There are so many nuances and truths which are easily ignored in the brevity of a forum post/comment.

After thinking about it and reading some peoples thoughts I figure it is dangerous to give ground to our despair over life's difficulties. The reason being it can diminish all the truths of God's greatness, sovereignty, and our hope in Christ. I think if I had to choose between the two I'd choose to neglect the sorrow for the joy; but I don't think it is choosing the better of two evils. Like you said and some have mentioned, there are songs that have been written. I should take a look.

I suppose the bottom line is trying to find a balance between the songs expressing joy and the ones acknowledging sorrow. My thoughts towards the "happy songs" maybe weren't a reaction to the songs themselves as much as how easy it is to hold them lightly, not be truly affected by the joy, peace, and hope of God. Or maybe a better way to put it, to use them as a device to hide ourselves from God instead of a reactionary tool to Gods involvement in our lives. The error wouldn't fall on the songs themselves if that is true. I don't think those songs breed falsehood in me.

And, I should correct something I said. I don't think revival will come just if we were to write more sorrowful songs. It may be something to consider, but God is at the source of any genuine revival, not our own efforts. ::sigh:: It just gets so involved, full of complexity and yet so simple at the same time.

After considering all your thoughts, I suppose we aren't uncomfortable with sorrow on a Sunday service. Just if sorrow is left, the lingering feeling of sadness without any hope or resolution in Christ Jesus.

For me I'll continue to think about it, and pray about genuine and honesty in worship. Maybe this topic isn't the "solution" I thought it might have been. But should anyone else have thoughts I'd love to hear them, all very insightful and honest ideas that you've posted so far.

Paul, the example of Jesus' suffering on the cross got me thinking. His focus was never off of the Father. Similarly, Hebrews prompts us in 12:2 "Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God" So, while Jesus suffering was very real, his focus was never upon the present circumstance but on future? Am I getting off here? If not this holds direction for songwriting.

It is, as has been said, impossible to lead worship that will touch the hearts of all the congregation. Worship is usually at the start of the service and prepares people for the Word given by the Pastor or guest speaker and to this end the predominently happy songs will give people a lift and we hope that they will leave on a positive note, encouraged, washed, renewed and enlightened.

Thinking of secular films, nearly all finish with a happy ending, the bad guy is arrested and the hero survives by the explosion. Not too many have sad endings, but even then you usually know you a going to watch a melancholy film, it's not like turning up to watch Die Hard 4.0 and then find Schindler's List is playing.

So I guess this is why we keep to the standard praise and worship, but if we had the laments then the pastor may call on us to use them if that fitted with the message or they had some news to give sad news.

Another thought is that we lead worship in our churches, but that goes beyond Sunday. The laments could be part of prayer meetings or we can produce cds so that the congregation can use these in personal times.

In the end, the mood of the songs for a meeting will be agreed by pastor and what they think the congregation need.