In this months episode we have great new song and interview from Soul Survivor's Beth Croft. Also Tim and Ben have a 'perfect pitch' show down!
29 May 2009 - 3:07pm
Interesting theological question: did Jesus die for me or did Christ die for God the Father, to fulfill his ability to be Just and Merciful?
I'm here at Capernwray Bible College... and there is something that came up and it is really really interesting and i realize that we sing a lot of worship songs that state "Jesus thank you for dying for ME" and that is all good and i whole heartly believe that Jesus Christ died for my sins (so please understand that my faith and salvation isn't crippled by this post or whatever)
But the question came up... how can God be Merciful and Just at the same time?
Just- giving someone what they DESERVE
Mercy- NOT giving someone what they DESERVE
So in order for God to be Just and Merciful... it is impossible (unless there is a third party [hint: Jesus]).
So did Jesus die for me... or did Christ die for God the Father, to fulfill his ability to be Just and Merciful?
(Again not trying to fight/argue/debate... just like talking about stuff like this)
Philippians 4:7 -"7 And the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus."
29 May 2009 - 3:42pm
Hi there, this is a huge question that probably can't really be answered succinctly on a forum - you're probably aware of the recent controversy on the issue of the atonement caused by Steve Chalke's book 'the Lost Message of Jesus'. I'd really recommend getting hold of the book that's recently been published which is papers from the 2005 LST Symposium on the Atonement http://www.amazon.co.uk/Atonement-Debate-Papers-Symposium-Theology/dp/0310273390/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1243607538&sr=8-1 as that gives a variety of answers to your question, as well as material for further reading.
One thing I got out of that book is that pretty much no modern theologian would propose that 'Jesus died cos the Father was angry and Jesus was loving so Jesus got in the way to take the punishment' which is a very simplistic caricature of the theory of the atonement
known as penal substitution. Any understanding you come to about the cross and exactly what it means has to include both the Father and Son (and the Spirit for that matter) all working together in love to fulfil the good purposes of God.
Second thing I'd say is that we do (especially in worship songs) is reduce the cross down to 'my personal salvation' by saying things like 'if you were the only person in the world Jesus would still die for you' - and yes that may well be true, but there is a danger there of making the cross too individualistic, whereas Colossians 1:20 spells out the much bigger cosmic implications of the cross:
19For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in [Jesus], 20and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
The cross is about the entire cosmos being reconciled to God, not just my own sins being paid for - we probably lose sight of that through some of songs and preaching that just reduce it down to me 'n' God.
Hope that helps as some initial thoughts...
God bless
Matt
www.RESOUNDworship.org
Free New Worship Songs
PS I'd argue that the phrase 'Jesus died for me' was fine on the basis of Romans 5:8
Romans 5:8
But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
- but that still doesn't describe exactly what was going on on the cross - was a ransom being paid, was God winning the victory over evil, was a punishment being taken, was an example being demonstrated, was a sacrifice being made... or elements of all those things??
as you can see - this has kept many a theologian busy for years! :)
www.RESOUNDworship.org
Free New Worship Songs
Just to keep the thread going ... and more to keep the theologians occupied for a few more years ... so where does grace enter into the equation?
:-)
Hey,
This thread really interested me when reading.
We all know that God is Love and the great Avenger at the same time, so I'm not surprised to here He is Just and Merciful at the same time.
"So did Jesus die for me... or did Christ die for God the Father, to fulfill his ability to be Just and Merciful?"
In just my opinion I think He died to God can be Glorified. We all sinned and have broken God's Law (The 10 Commandments) We all told a lie, making us a Liar and stolen making us a thief etc. We know that all liars would have "their part in the Lake of Fire" and "No thief shall inherit the Kingdom of God". God is so Holy and he cannot accept our sin touched good works (we can even read from the Bible he views them as "Dirty rags").
God is JUST and he has to punish people that break the Law. He cannot just simply let people go because that would be a corrupt Judge. He cannot accept our Good works as a bribe.
God is MERCIFUL and sent Jesus to pay our fine.
Jesus dying on the Cross is the Greatest Act of Love and the Greatest Act to show that God is both JUST and MERCIFUL cause it shows He is JUST because he shed His blood to satisfy eternal Justice and Wrath and He is Merciful because he gave up His throne to come and rescue sinner's.
"On that Cross as Jesus died, the Wrath of God was Satisfied".
Alan...All this is Grace,
God's
Riches
At
Christ's
Expense
:-)
It's because of His Grace that we are saved. It was because of His Grace that Jesus came to show that He is JUST by dying on the Cross to Satisfy Justice and His Wrath and it's because of His Grace that Jesus came to show He is MERCIFUL by dying on the Cross to save us.
Philippians 2:6
Though He was God,
He did not think of equality with God
as something to cling to.
Philippians 2:8
He humbled himself in obedience to God
and died a criminal’s death on a cross.
Philippians 2:11
And every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the GLORY OF GOD THE FATHER.
It's all for His Glory.
Romans 5:8
But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
Matt...The Cross is amazing. I don't know if you get those moments when you look at the Cross you see something just Awesome and you can't describe.
Once again in my opinion I think on the Cross God's MERCY and GRACE was shown and also on the CROSS God's JUST(ice) is shown by satisfying Justice and His Wrath and also the defeating Sin and Death.
But all this is for the Glory of God. If Jesus didn't die on the Cross would all this be possible (Worship Central etc) No, it's because of the Cross that is it possible. That's why I love Matt's Song on the Trinity. "Son of God, Son of Man, PERFECT PAYMENT for Sin". I would really love to sing that at Church one day.
A quick summary of what I was saying: THE CROSS IS FOR THE GLORY OF GOD.
"Forever THREE Forever ONE" // "FOREVER FATHER SPIRIT SON"
(We give glory [Awesome Trinity] - Matt Osgood)
Philippians 2:9-11
Therefore, God elevated Him to the place of highest honor
and gave Him the Name above all other names,
That at the Name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
And every tongue confess that JESUS CHRIST is LORD,
to the GLORY of GOD the FATHER
In Christ
Philip C
Yes yes yes!! Thank you guys for commenting and i FULLY agree with everything that is said. Again please understand i completly understand Salvation (and have been saved, am being saved, and will be saved [another discussion if you so desire]).
And Matt, thank you very much because you said something that was great, "we reduce the cross down to 'my personal salvation'... whereas Colossians 1:20 spells out the much bigger cosmic implications of the cross" and that the cross (not the cross itself but what occured at the cross) is a cosmic redemption and the whole creation will be set right as Romans 8:22-23 hints towards
"22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers together until now.
23 Not only this, but we ourselves also, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we eagerly await our adoption, the redemption of our bodies."
And Philip... you said yourself "He is JUST because he shed His blood to satisfy eternal Justice and Wrath" and that wrath is the wrath that we desirve for sin... and again to be Just, God must punish for that sin... Think of it like this... if God could just say "Welcome to the Kingdom" without the cross, he is still merciful and Jesus wouldn't have to have died... but then he isn't Just (again this is just hypothetical).
So Christ's death isn't for the sole reason of our sins... but to Justify God's Mercy... 1 Timothy 2:4 says that God wants all peoples to be saved, but he needs to be merciful to do so (and He is a Just God)... again, I agree with Matt that there might not be a solid answer for this... but it's great to talk about it.
Hey "Pray For Timmy",
If a man murders and rape a women, the man cannot go to the Judge and say - "Judge, I'm sorry but please let me go now cause your good". If the Judge let's him go then the judge is corrupt.
But because God is SO Good He cannot let us go, but thanks to Jesus on the Cross, our fine is paid. We broke God's Law Jesus paid the Fine.
I said this before, God is JUST so He satisfied God's wrath and justice by shedding His Blood.
You said: "Think of it like this... if God could just say "Welcome to the Kingdom" without the cross, he is still merciful and Jesus wouldn't have to have died... but then he isn't Just (again this is just hypothetical)."
If God had said that without the Cross then He would not be JUST because we broke God's Law and he is simply letting us go (there is no justice in that) but because he is merciful so He will say "Welcome to the Kingdom" but it won't be JUST.
Here's the awesome part -
God can be both JUST and MERCIFUL at the same time, and that is through the CROSS.
At the Cross eternal JUST(ice) is appeased and God's Wrath satisfied. At the Cross God demonstrated His Love and Mercy.
I'm not trying to disagree with you guys but I think there is a solid answer for this. I think this is it - the CROSS is for the GLORY of GOD
Philippians 2:8
He humbled himself in obedience to God
and died a criminal’s death on a cross.
Philippians 2:11
And every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the GLORY OF GOD THE FATHER.
When the Perfect Son of God cried - "IT IS FINISHED" Eternal Justice and God's Wrath satisfied, His Mercy displayed and sin is defeated. Every drop of His perfect blood satisfies His wrath and eternal justice and at the same time is cleanses us from the inside out.
Do you agree?
It's great hearing your thoughts. Back to your original question - "Who did Christ die for?" I think there is lots of answers for that but I think there is ONE answer that can answer that fully.
Yes, He died for us.
Yes, He died because He is MERCIFUL to us.
Yes, He died so Justice and Wrath can be satisfied because God is JUST.
The ONE answer I think answer that question 100% is - Yes, He died so GOD can be GLORIFIED.
Great to hear what you think? And also Matt's thoughts on this as well.
In Christ.
Philip C
Hi Philip - what you're talking about is what's known as the penal substitutionary theory of the atonement - basically we sinned, there is a penalty (or punishment) associated with that sin, God in his love didn't want us to pay the penalty so Jesus paid it instead. Thus it is argued that God's justice and mercy are both satisfied.
However... you should know that this particular view of what happened on the cross has come in for a fair bit of questioning in recent years, the most well-known instance of which is Steve Chalke in his book 'The Lost Message of Jesus' (which isn't about the cross at all) described the idea of a vengeful God punishing his innocent Son for the sins that other people had committed as 'cosmic child abuse' - in the book it's almost a throwaway line, but understandably a lot of people who hold to a penal substitutionary understanding of the atonement (and thought that Steve Chalke was attacking a complete caricature anyway) got rather cross. Lots of articles, books, and angry words later, the London School of Theology called a Symposium where people representing the different views could get together - all the papers from that 2005 meeting have now been published in the book I mentioned above, which I would recommend as essential reading on this subject, as it presents views from both sides and allows the reader to make their own mind up.
I'm not going to comment on what I think about the rightness or wrongness of particular views - mostly because I'm not sure what I think! - but just a couple of questions about the penal substitution theory of the atonement:
- you said above that God had to punish Jesus to show his justice, which is a common understanding of penal substitution (PS) - however if in a law court someone had committed a crime and someone else offered to pay their fine or serve their sentence, we might appreciate the sacrifice behind that gesture, but we wouldn't really say that justice had been done, especially if the substitute is allowed to go to prison. If person B goes to prison for a crime that person A commits, we generally call that a MIScarriage of justice, not justice satisfied.
- similarly, if God decides that yes he is going to punish Jesus for the sins of the whole world, because he's God and he can choose that that will satisfy his justice, why not ust forgive everyone? If our guilt has been transferred away from us to Jesus, why did Jesus have to die a horrible agonising death, forsaken by the Father? Why didn't God just transfer our guilt away from us and leave it at that?
- another objection raised against PS is that it is often portrayed as fundamentally about God being really mad with humanity, and Jesus stepping in the way. There's a terrible analogy that I heard do the evangelistic preaching rounds a few years back, about a man who operated a railway bridge, and one day his son was playing in the mechanism when an express train was coming - so the man had to close the bridge and kill his son to let the train through - and that's then given as an analogy for the cross, almost like God's saying 'hey, I'm really mad cos you've all sinned, so I've just got to kill someone, don't really mind who' or that Jesus going to the cross was some kind of accident.
Actually, that's not an objection to PS as such, more as to how it's often portrayed in preaching with 'God had to kill someone and he killed Jesus instead of you, so don't you feel happy/really guilty?!'
So........ I'm not saying that any of those objections are knock-down arguments against PS, but just to let you know of some of the questions that others are raising. There's plenty of others - like 'if PS is "the Gospel" (as it is portrayed in many quarters) then why is it that Jesus said he came to bring the Gospel? He wasn't preaching about his death as punishment for sin, he was preaching about the kingdom of God coming near'
and so on and so on. Anyway - it's a very interesting discussion, but one that too many people have got far too heated about, so I'm going to leave it there with another recommendation to read the Atonement Debate book! :)
Blessings,
Matt
www.RESOUNDworship.org
Free New Worship Songs
Hey Matt,
Really good points. I'm not disagreeing with you or anything but it's really cool that we can all discuss this.
Do you agree with me that the Cross is for the Glory of God?
I don't think i'm trying to say that God is saying "I'll kill someone and it's fine" instead -
We broke God's Law and He is angry at our sin, If he is Just he cannot let us Enter the Kingdom, we have to pay for our crimes, and what will do?
£1,000,000,000,000?
All the Gold in the World?
What on earth or this universe is pure and rich enough to pay for our crimes?
None of them will be enough except one thing and that's -
The Blood of Christ.
Jesus came to shed His blood to pay for our fine.
In the Old Testament when God's chosen people broke God's law they had to provide a Lamb as a Sacrifice for their sins. And if the Lamb met the Law's requirements then the Blood shedding will let there be forgiveness. The blood shedding of the Lamb was the payment for their sins under the law of Moses. Can you see the Court image?
A Legal transaction was made 2000 years ago, Jesus came and gave His life as a ransom for many. Under the old covenant almost everything was cleansed with blood.
It is written in the Scriptures (Hebrews) "For without Blood shedding there cannot be
forgiveness"
Hebrews 9:22
In fact, according to the law of Moses, nearly everything was purified with blood. For without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness.
Romans 1:32
They know God’s JUSTICE requires that those who do these things deserve to die, yet they do them anyway. Worse yet, they encourage others to do them, too.
Romans 2:2
And we know that God, in his JUSTICE, will punish anyone who does such things.
The most precious material on earth (The Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ) was used as a payment. I believe the Blood of Christ is stronger and greater and He is a "Greater Saviour". His Blood is strong enough to wipe away our sins and satisfy God's Wrath. He is Stronger and Greater Saviour King. The Kingdom of God is near and may it come. He came to tell the world the Good news is that His blood can cleanse and satisfy God's wrath so through Him we may enter the Kingdom covered by His righteousness.
We cannot enter the Kingdom because we sinned. He is so Holy that the Scripture said "Nothing impure can enter His Kingdom" but the Gospel is the Good news that we can enter because of what He did on the Cross.
John 10:9
Yes, I am the gate. Those who come in through me will be saved.
When He died He brought Justice and Righteousness to us.
Jeremiah 9:24
But those who wish to boast should boast in this alone:that they truly know me and understand that I am the Lord who demonstrates unfailing love and who brings JUSTICE and RIGHTEOUSNESS to the earth, and that I delight in these things. I, the LORD, have SPOKEN!
Jeremiah 30:11
For I am with you and will save you,” says the Lord.“I will completely destroy the nations where I have scattered you,but I will not completely destroy you.I will discipline you, but with JUSTICE; I cannot let you go UNPUNISHED.”
Jeremiah 46:28
Do not be afraid, Jacob, my servant,for I am with you,” says the Lord.“I will completely destroy the nations to which I have exiled you,but I will not completely destroy you.I will discipline you, but with justice;I cannot let you go unpunished.”
Lamentations 3:36
if they twist justice in the courts—doesn’t the Lord see all these things?
I became a Christian 4 years ago when I was 11 years old and this was the passage that saved me. It was a reading from a little booklet called "The Word 4u 2day" -
31 Jan 2006 Forgiveness!
'...I AM THE ONE WHO TAKES CARE OF YOUR SINS - THAT'S WHAT I DO...' ISAIAH 43:MSG
In Old Testament days when a man 'blew it,' he brought a lamb to the altar as payment for his sins. But notice this: the priest didn't examine the man, he only examined the lamb. If the lamb met God's requirements the man was instantly forgiven. That is still how it works! When you fail, you need only approach God and say, 'Father, I come in the name of Jesus asking for forgiveness.' In that moment the Father's focus moves from you to Christ, and you are automatically forgiven. What an arrangement! But you need to forgive yourself too. If you don't, you're saying God's forgiveness isn't good enough. That's wrong! If a perfect God says He will forgive you, on what grounds do you, an imperfect person, refuse to forgive yourself - or anybody else?
'You get nothing for nothing,' you say. Nothing? Are you serious? God's forgiveness is the most expensive thing in the world. It may have cost you nothing, but it cost God everything. Its pride that makes us think that somehow we've got to pay, at least in part, for what we've done. Yes, there are consequences and correction that build your character - but don't think that's what deals with your sin! When Jesus cried, 'It is finished,' and died, God wrote, 'paid in full' across every sin debt you'd ever owe. And you must accept that by faith. Why? Because no more will ever be required, and no less will ever be accepted!
What do you think?
Great hearing your thoughts. Hope all is well. How is Resound Worship doing? Are you gonna start writing all age worship songs too?
In Christ
Philip
Good debate chaps. I'd recommed Death by Love by Mark Driscoll and Garry Breshears and The Cross of Christ by John Stott as well as Matt's suggested reading above.
What happed on the cross is difficult (impossible?!) to for us accurately and convincingly explain. I like the idea of the cross being a "many facted jewel" - meaning that there are numerous ways that Jesus' death can be understood, none of which are contradictory to the others, and together serve to give a fuller picture than any single metaphor alone.
If you chose penal substitutionary atonement as your sole understanding of the mechanism of salvation, you run into the problems listed by Matt above. It borrows heavily from legal imagery which, though helpful, cannot be the sole account of the cross.
If you take penal substitutionary atonement in conjuction with ideas of expiation (that Jesus bears our sins away [the ultimate scapegoat]) and propitiaion (that God's wrath towards sin must be assuaged) then you build a fuller picute. God cannot simply forgive sin (His wrath needs propitiated) and its not within His nature to leave it undealt with (it must be borne by someone).
In answer to the "is God cruel for killing Jesus" question, the best respone is that Jesus' chose to follow the Father's will and be incarnated to die on a cross. Jesus was an innocent but not passive victim. He understood the pain (physical and spiritual) and choose to drink from the cup knowing that as the fully innocent God/man sin and death would be undone. Much like Aslan in the Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe.
Hey Philip - just to reiterate, I'm not arguing particularly for or against penal substitution, just mentioning a few objections that people about it. If you google 'theories of the atonement' you'll find loads of pages explaining all the different ideas that Christians have had over the centuries about the means by which we are saved.
And Paul - yes your last para is the obvious answer to the 'cosmic child abuse' line - Jesus wasn't a defenceless child trapped in the mechanism of a railway bridge, he was God incarnate going willingly and knowingly to his death as an adult human.
Got to agree with the 'multi-faceted diamond' idea!
www.RESOUNDworship.org
Free New Worship Songs
New Song
Podcast
Forum Latest
