jlukesalter
From lifechurch - Bedworth/Nuneaton
Hey all,
Long time listener first time caller etc. but I'm wondering if you all can help me...?!?!
I'm currently conducting my dissertation and need to use this forum as a method of research (I spend enough procrastination time here when I ought to be working so it made sense to use it!) The topic of my dissertation is essentially 'common problems with a church PA system'. Could you guys list me some that you encounter? Don't worry if the problem has already been said, I need to know how common they are so repeating something will help!
Examples might range from "when the deacons hand out percussion instruments to the kids in one of the 'praise choruses' they're often too loud" or "the old lady on the third row on the left reckons my guitar amplifier is ugly and likes me to cover it with the lace cloth from the altar" to "the large cavity under the stage area couples with the subwoofer and amplifies the bass frequencies" anything goes really, you can be as technical as you like...
However can i just point out that I don't need answers to the problems, I'm sure many of you will be itching to answer them and that's fine... but if the thread goes off on a tangent I'll never get any data!
Ok so.... answers on a postcard below! GO...
Cheers for your reply mate, the examples were extreme and not especially serious although he dissertation also deals with sensitivities to equipment and attitudes within the church (to modern advances) as well as acoustic and technical problems. In some respects the dissertation will delve into 'distraction' but it's for a BSc degree so I've got to bring it back to scientific testing at some point! (at least I'd like to to make my life easier)
The comments on volume and changes during soundcheck is one I hadn't thought of. I'll make a not of that and possibly mention it, cheers.
I'll be mentioning the feedback issue extensively and ways to combat its occurrence.
Thanks for your feedback, Anyone else got a list of issues they struggle with?
Hi Luke (?)
Have you got a structure or scope for the dissertation yet? How long is it supposed to be? Your title is quite ambiguous, so it'd be good to understand if you've nailed it down any further.
If not, then categorising things is probably a good place to start. You could, for example start with a basic structure of...
- Personnel-related problems on the PA team itself (eg. attitute issues, lack of competency, lack of competent personnel, different 'tastes' between desk drivers as to how a mix should sound etc)
- Congregational & pastoral personnel issues (eg. leadership - for various reasons - want PA in places where it's not optimal, people think it's too loud because X Y or Z). This then overlaps into technical problems
- Equipment-related (eg. lack of equipment, wrong equipment being used, equipment is poor)
- Environmental reasons (eg. shape of buildings/rooms, materials used in construction, proximity of congregation to staging)
- Operational issues (eg. musicians accidentally press the ground lift of pad buttons on the DI when picking them up, kids are given tambourines and they bleed into the mics, musicians with wedges or loud amps, drums etc)
As someone who has written and proof-read more than a few dissertations, I think it'd be best to come up with a few structures or categories for us to feed into otherwise you're just going to get a whirl of ideas and no real organisation, and it will make it really hard to organise.
Hey Joe.
Thanks for taking the time to reply.
Essentially I'm sort of after a whirl of ideas...
I'm more than happy to sit down and organise things at a later date. I already have a similar structure in place for dividing the 'problems/issues' into categories after I've completed the preliminary testing (of which this thread will hopefully become a part).
I'm already well into the literary review and as part of my preliminary testing I surveyed a number of churches via semi-formal interview and have processed the data from that already taking in to account the style of music, validity of their system within the space, personnel issues with volunteers, age of the system, denomination, congregation and room size etc.
The final output of the dissertation should be 'A guide to conducting an amplified church service'; a 'dumbed down' version of the findings of my final testing into a guide followable by the average church joe taking into account the sensitivities, budget and other issues which are specific to a 21st century church.
How's that? Any more concerns?
It's more helpful.
If you've already got a structure in place, or something approximate, i'd post that up along with some of the ideas you've come up with. You'll reduce the risk of duplicated ideas, and more to the point, people then have a framework on which to hang their ideas, reducing the risk of them missing anything (your final catch-all is "anything else").
It's also a sensible format to apply for sifting through as part of your evidence base.
I presume your guide to an amplified church service is going to take into account the different sort of traditions for music and worship you have within different denominations & style? This website is overwhelmingly evangelical / charismatic, and as such you're going to get a very contemporary view. If you're seeking to provide guidance for churches which might have eg. a classical lineup, it's not so much help.
Your advice is good, it might prove helpful when it comes to writing my final draft. You're brilliant at seeing the flaws in a dissertation. I'd imagine you're an expert at planning and scoping a project so as to take i to account many many variables. In honesty if you were my supervisor I'm without doubt that you'd help me achieve a very high grade. Having to justify my project here has helped me to get my head around some ideas by voicing them in a public environment. Thank you for your input.
However that wasn't what I aimed to get out of this thread. I just hoped to hear some issues people had with their PA systems and their buildings. Just simple four word posts like "Drums are too loud!"or "Bassist way too loud!" or the favourite "can't turn up the tie mic because it feeds back" (that's not four words but it's a valid issue).
I know I made the mistake of asking on 'the internet' where everybody is opinionated and nobody likes to admit to having problems through fear of somebody telling them exactly what they should do and playing the role of 'expert'. I just wanted to create a safe light hearted thread where people could come in tell me what their church struggles with and then leave knowing they've got it off their chests and they've helped a poor university student looking for data.
If people like we can start all the posts with 'My friends church...*wink wink*' just so we don't feel victimised if someone gives their 2 cents? ...that's not a bad idea.
What problems do your 'friends' *wink wink* have when it comes to sound reinforcement at their churches?
Some ideas:
Environmental issues - is the building too reverberant? is it an awkward shape?
Operational issues - do the musicians have their amps too loud? perhaps the drummer likes to rock out a little too hard?
Personnel issues - Is the PA team relatively inexperienced? Do they know what the problems are but have no way of solving the issue? Do some people who mix the service have hearing issues?
Equipment issues - Is your PA system adequate? Is the budget too small? (always ;)) Is the equipment broken?
Congregational and Sensitivity issues - Do different people who attend your service like it to sound different to others, ie: is it too loud for older people? Do people in your service complain that the speakers are ugly or unsightly? Do you think your PA system is unsightly?
Anything goes, just don't be afraid to say it. I'm looking for honesty here.
No worries, just so long as you're happy with what you've got going on. I'm not particularly brilliant, just thoughtful. And to be honest, i'm just trying to be as helpful as possible, but in as efficient a way as possible.
I could give you a potted history of the fun we've had with PA for the last few years, and tell you exactly why there are problems (and there have been a few!) but - in the nicest way possible - I don't want to waste your time by saying it if someone already has!
So I can give a bullet list of the problems we've encountered (and mostly solved) along the way if that would be helpful?
Yeah I'm completely up for duplicates (as I said in my initial post), I'm looking to determine which problems are the most common and thus most of a problem. Cheers for being a sport about it, I didn't mean any disrespect I was just rescuing a thread from veering off into one about how to successfully scope a dissertation!
Feel free to shout out as many issues as you can think of, solved or not.
No worries, I hadn't taken any offence and you have to go quite a long way to piss me off in any case...
Ok, here's the not-so-shortlist
Acoustic guitars sound pants as electric guitarists EQing them (mids are good, right?)
People don't know how to EQ
People don't know how to set gain
Too many cables running everywhere and tripping people up.
Acoustic guitars with multi source pickups feeding back
The gear was bought by some guys who didn't know that much about PA
They bought stuff that I didn't recommend because they left it too late and needed something for the meeting
Cheap gear breaking because it's over-used and not flightcased properly
Sound mix is sometimes ropey as it's rushed in setup as church isn't in a fixed location
Comb-filtering as pastoral staff move speakers to not the best places because it doesn't look good, or they don't want to move the projector screens
People accidentally jabbing timed off buttons on the back of speakers so they cut out mid-set
People accidentally jabbing DI 20db pad buttons leaving FOH wondering why signal level is pants
Bleed from dirty PSUs into the sound giving a whining noise
Feedback loops from vocal mics as people put speakers behind the band.
Feedback from tie clip mic as it's really rubbish and the speaker kept moving around.
IEMs cutting out as batteries die
Cables cutting out as people tread on them or coil them badly
It's too loud
It's too much hassle to set everything up
Can't hear people as they gesture with the mic when they talk
Boomy sound as the speakers face a big glass window on the other side of the room.
Even more boomy sound as room had a belltower on top of it that the sound disappeared into.
Drums are too loud
Guitar amps are too loud
Bass is too bassy
I'm too loud (with or without mic)
People can't hear themselves when trying to talk quietly during the worship set
Nasty plosive sounds through mics
Hand noise from mics
Unbalanced sound as we can't afford subs
Dry sound because we haven't got reverbs
Sudden peaks in sound because of bad mic technique & people not knowing how to use comps.
Someone forgetting to turn off the mic when not leading (in this case taking a group of children out to another room),
An old system that was originally designed for speaking and only has speakers at the front of church. Very bad at the back but lots of people still like to sit there.
The person on sound turning down the lead guitar to please some of the more traditional folk whilst others complain that they can't hear
Biggest one is lack of tech knowledge, especially when getting advice and sorting out a new sound system so big need for training - practical and easy to understand for non techies that lead worship.
Will soon be storage and portability (using school)
New Song
Forum Latest
hi there,
just a question first, but neither of the first 2 things you mention are problems with a church sound system. unless the kids intruments are going through the pa? in which case the mics picking up the noise need to be adjusted accordingly.
the amp thing isnt nothing to do with sound either.
i seems your diss would be more about "balancing the sound in worship services so it doesnt distract people from God". a very big subject!
for us, feedback is a tricky one, it seems to randomly occur when we least expect it.
also the worship leader speaking through the mic is often difficult to pick up but singing through it is fine.
another problem is soundchecks. they often sound too loud with only a few people in the building but when more
people are there and the service starts they soak up the sound and it works fine.
hope that helps!
cheers,
gav.