I think it would be wrong to use pre-destination as a cop-out to cover us when we fail to act. We can't sit on our hands and expect God to magically reach out to others without his church being involved. Having said that, his word will take effect at times despite our best efforts and intentions, rather than because of them! He has chosen us, we didn't choose him - so I believe his desire is for all people to be saved. We are clearly told to spread the good news and make disciples of all nations and it's true that some people will be brought to Christ purely because of something we have done (and the power of God working through us in that moment). None of our evangelistic efforts would be frowned upon by God as a waste of time or us interfering with his pre-determined will. Think of the bargaining that went on with God before Sodom & Gomorrah was destroyed. I think it's possible to trust in God's actions and also offer some actions ourselves in the hope that they would please God and be considered by him as part of his overall plan. == Glor agus moladh duit a Iosa http://www.soundclick.com/justlorenzo

Here's my personal interpretation of free will vs. predestination. Warning: it may be 100% wrong! First, I believe that we have free will and we are not just puppets being manipulated by some higher being. We were created as companions, not toys. Now, the bible has various references to say that we are chosen by God, e.g. Galatians 1:15. Free will means that we chose God, the bible says that God chose us. Which is it? One way to look at this, and this part is mostly just playing with semantics, uses an example that I used in housegroup once. I asked for volunteers and some people put their hands up, so I asked them to stand up. Effectively I chose them, because they volunteered, even though they exercised free will in volunteering. So choosing does not always preclude free will. But if that's the extent of the reasoning then it's a bit shallow. A more thought provoking way to look at it is to break down what the problem is. Basically we struggle with God choosing us _before_ we chose God. If God chose us first, then did it matter what I said or did? If God chose me, what if I didn't want to be chosen? And, in the topic of the original question, why bother evangelising if God is going to choose some people and not others anyway? All of this revolves around the idea that God chose us _before_ we had the chance to make any decisions. But, and here's the deep bit, what does _before_ mean to God? God, who created time, is eternal; he is outside of time, not subject to it. Our perception of one thing happening after another is the result of being _inside_ time. Now, I haven't a clue how one might grasp how we look to God but I like to think that when God looks at us he sees us as a baby, a child, a teenager, an adult and a soul all at once, wrapped up into a single being. He sees all that we are, have been and will be. This means also that, from God's perspective, all that we have done, are doing and will do are wrapped up in one bundle of Now. When we choose God, it isn't last year, or ten years ago, or whatever - it's Now. And when God chooses us, he does so with the knowledge of what we have done and what we will do, both infant and ancient. He chose us when we were in the womb, as Paul says in Galatians, and also when we are on the verge of death. The Now of God encapsulates the span of our lives, so when God chooses us 'in the womb', it's with the full knowledge of our lives, including the bit where we become Christians. As I said at the start, this could be 100% wrong but it works for me.

I'm not sure you'll tie it up. There are people that God has predestined to be with him. Consequently there are people who are predestined to not be with him. There are 2 camps on the "who decides who get to be with him" debate. There's the calvinists who say God is sovreign, that he alone calls, pursues and saves, and that no-one can over-ride His decision. The problem with that is it appears that certain people are "chosen" by God not to be saved, which seem to us unfair. The other camp are the Arminians who say that we, given we have free will, essentially have a veto over God's calling. Therefore people can chose not to follow the leading of the Holy Spirit. Predestination works in this setting because God is assumed to know in advance how people will choose. The problem with this is that it gives us humans more power that God. What is not clear is *how* people come to hear about God, which is where evangelism comes in. If someone is predestined by God to be saved, the means by which the person is saved may be the Spirit working through your evangelism. BUT if the person was predestined to be saved, are you then predestined to evangelise them? If calvinists are right God will call the person regardless - His ways can't be thwarted by a lack of evangelism. If Arminians are right, you might help sway someones choice. Hence the saying "work like an Arminians, sleep like a Calvinist" (i.e. do all you can to make sure those around you are saved, but rest assured in your own salvation.)