Marc Proctor
From New Hope Church
Warning, want a headache? Then read on! This is just an odd question that I thought I'd pose, I think it has little value, though some may disagree, but still I'm intrigued by it.
I’m reading Brian McLaren’s book “A New Kind of Christianity” (I know he’s controversial, I just got tired of making judgments from 2nd hand info about him.)
Anyway, one of McLaren’s points (among many, some I think are good and some are bad… but I digress!) is regarding the nature of God. He proposed that there is a Greco-Roman view of God (he termed this god theos), and one rooted in Jewish tradition (he termed this god elohim).
Brian writes with a lot of fluff, but from what I gather, theos is concerned with states of being and a linear progression from sinner, to redeemed, to perfect state in heaven; elohim is concerned with the process of the now. That is to say the goal isn’t about achieving a state of being, but it is the process itself. (He then goes into advocate Open Theism, I’ve read some on Open Theism from Greg Boyd. I am by no means an expert… I only know enough to not be convinced by it.)
So my question, to the point (sorry about the length), do you feel life (including God as the definer of life) is about the process or the linear state. Or, any general thoughts on this would be neat to hear.
Scissor metaphor =Game-set-match!? :) Good point!
I understood "state" to mean God is interested in (here comes my headache!) our achieving a "saved" state of being. That the process (i.e. the learning about God, growing in God and such) is a footnote to our achieving a state of salvation. Or yet again, to say, God isn't interested in the process without us achieving the state of "being saved".
Like I said, feels like kind of a circus question... but its still interesting to me for some odd reason!
I don't think being a Christian is a 'state' in the way your define it, Marc. That is:
"our achieving a "saved" state of being. That the process (i.e. the learning about God, growing in God and such) is a footnote to our achieving a state of salvation."
I don't think we achieve a 'state' of salvation through process. We are saved and have salvation when we except Jesus. Period. Our destiny in Christ is then assured. But that 'walk' of discipleship is most definitely a process. Or to put it a little more accurately (in my opinion), a journey. Marc, I realise I've quoted from a book I'm currently reading in another thread we're discussing, but of that journey, Adrian Plass says this:
"For those engaged on the journey of life there are three options. On one side are the impassable rocks and mountains of the law. No good taking that route. It's too difficult and you won't make it. On the other side is the swamp of licence. It looks okay on the surface, but try going that way and you'll sink and suffocate and die. Right down the middle runs the narrow path of grace, a way that springs from the undeserved kindness of God, and is individually designed for each person who needs it."
And in the same book, Jeff Lucas candidly writes:
"Sometimes, I feel like giving up... because I get exhausted with the unfinished business that is my life. And it's made worse when others make it all seem so easy, such a neat process, as if 'spiritual growth' is a brisk march up a straight path that climbs to the top of Everest, a straight line on a graph. I don't march or walk with Jesus; I stagger and take frequent rest stops."
I just reckon God is so very relational. He loves relationship. If you're in a relationship with another human, you want to grow together, learn more about one another, explore life together and deepen your relationship as time progresses. Isn't it exactly the same with God and us? If you accept Jesus, you're salvation is assured. But that's just the start of a relationship that must develop and deepen over time if it has any meaning. It's called discipleship, and whilst the narrow, craggy path is not easy (we were told it would be so), we know where we're headed and we know we're not alone.
PS: I'm an advocate of many aspects of open theism, Marc. At least, I certainly don't agree with the major tenets of Calvinism. But I'm not sure that has many direct implications on discipleship. But I could be wrong.
I wondered if you might chip in, Matt...
Marc
I'd be wary before dismissing Open Theism. A lot of people who discredit it have not actually bothered to understand what it is about and I have seen a couple of repudiations which were simply factually incorrect.
Unlike Matt, i'm not necessarily an advocate, although I did briefly poke into it. I found some good ideas that shouldn't necessarily be thrown out with the bathwater. I'm not a Calvinist either. In fact, I don't really know what I am, other than a believer. I've got a hard enough time just trying to wrestle with the Bible.
I think you should read some NT Wright. The Challenge of Jesus might well have some insights for you.
I wouldn't necessarily encourage someone towards any particular theological direction unless a debate about the nature and ways of God was actually what they wanted. All I would do is encourage Christians to be able to provide some semblance of answers for the big questions of the faith that we often wrestle with. In other words, don't leave it until you have to endure a crisis of faith to ponder these things. It's very clear to see how someone's underlying theology can affect everyday decisions and the way they approach their faith and actions. I prefer not to think of myself as an 'open theist' or any other label of doctrine, but just a believer who has some thoughts, conclusions and 'work-in-progress' ideas about who God is and how He operates.
It's worth studying, is all I'm really saying!
I'd say it's both about the process and the state. As for being a Christian, the bottom line is you're saved and put right with God and that is awesome! And that state of being is very important, I suppose in a way it allows us to live out the process and journey of faith. It's also about the process of how we live now on earth before Heaven because we live in the tension of the 'now and not yet' nature of being saved, but God not having completed His work in us and Jesus having come back and judged. We are saved, but we still sin. We are in the process of being made perfect, and that's hard. We have to struggle with knowing God's grace and mercy and love but live in a world of suffering and pain and the devil still having a hold and people messing up.
Good thoughts and answers! Its one of those questions that I figure can ultimately boil down into one of those free will vs. Gods sovereignty debates. Debates which I'm quite exhausted of having. Didn't mean to bring that topic up again.
Far as Open Theism is concerned, I don't dismiss it, but I couldn't totally accept it either. Indeed, there are aspects of all "complete" definitions of God that seem to miss. I figure one element that all definitions miss is this element of mystery; that God has revealed Himself to us, but He is still beyond us. So I'm still working out what a fair definition of God and His methods may be. Maybe I'll never get there, oh well, doesn't change my position of faith in Christ.
I have nothing else to really add to the question; I'd agree with you guys, after thinking, I agree the answer seems to be held in a tension, or balance between two extremes... like so many answers in Christianity.
Hi Marc. Just for the record (and without meaning to stir the theological hornets' nest again!) I'd argue there's no reason to conclude that free will and God's sovereignty are mutually exclusive. In fact, I'd submit that the former increases the significance of the latter!
I see where you're coming from with that. Upon reviewing it, I figure it is a point that I feel few would deny! I think divergences occur with perspective on the minute points of that significance. :)
At risk of sitting on a fence somewhere, can you claim that belonging to Christ is both a state and a process? It's a state because it's a relationship we freely choose and make a heartfelt, conscious decision to commit to at a distinct moment in our life. Yet it's also a process in that He constantly remakes us and draws us deeper into that state of being: it's a fluid, dynamic relationship which mimics that of the Trinity.
A similar question might be - is flying a state or a process? A state because you're either up in the air or you're not...and a process in that, if you stop meeting all the conditions necessary for flying...you're gonna stop flying soon enough!
So briefly, I see being Christian as a dynamic state of being.
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I've got a headache. It's half midnight and I really should be in bed - but hey!
Perhaps I've misunderstood, but in essence are you asking what's more important - the living or the perfect state in heaven?
If so I'd say personally it's a bit of a defunct question - right now we're called to evangelise, spread the gospel and draw as many people as we can into God's kingdom. That's hugely important. And being in heaven as oppose to just "dying" and there being nothing afterwards? Again I'd say it's absolutely fundamental. So if I've understood correctly, it seems to me a bit like asking what blade on a pair of scissors is the most important.