Michael
From Canterbury Baptist Church
There's a few things cropped up on here similar already, but dealing with the situation directly - if you're running sound at what you consider to be a perfectly acceptable volume and person x comes up to you and tells you for no good reason to turn it down, what's your reaction? What do you do?
I have to admit, mine up until recently always went something like this:
"It's too loud! Turn it down!"
*sarcastic look*
"It needs to be quieter!"
Me: "ok"... *doesn't turn it down at all*
And one particular time, this was followed by the same person coming up 5 minutes later saying:
"See, that sounds much better now doesn't it?"
I have to confess to hiding a rather prominent smirk at that point!
Recently though, I've decided enough is enough and I'm in no uncertain terms fed up to the back teeth of the same people moaning about the same thing week in week out, so the latest conversation I had with the latest person who told me to turn it down went somewhat differently:
"It's too loud! Turn it down!"
Me: *pause* Nope, sounds fine to me. I'll leave it where it is.
"No! It's much too loud, people are moving away from the speaker! Turn it down now!"
Me: "No. It's fine."
This was followed by said person storming off, to be honest I was quite glad the conversation didn't go on for any longer!
I should point out that I can and will turn it down if someone asks for a genuine reason other than they want things done their own way. Earlier before the service during rehearsal I was asked very nicely if I wouldn't mind reducing the volume a bit because said person couldn't hear a new couple she was trying to talk to before the service. No problem at all, down it goes.
In the service however, unless I'm given a reason other than something that boils down to "I don't like it", I've now taken the stance of flatly refusing. It may cause arguments, and I'm sure I'm causing a fair few people in the congregation to dislike me because of it, but I feel better telling the truth to said people than brushing it off with a white lie and then waiting for the psychological side of their brains to kick in and tell them it's sounding better. There's also a few other reasons why I now do things this way:
- If everyone in the congregation / leadership unanimously thought it was way too loud, I'd turn it down. But through experience and talking to a number of people whose opinion I trust in both categories, I know full well that if it sounds good to my ears it sounds good to at least a decent chunk of the congregation.
- The speakers at our church don't do loud. There is, quite literally, no such thing as far as they're concerned. They're 2 old, unbranded, tiny boxes that you quite frankly need to push as far as they sensibly go to hear things with any clarity at the back and on the balcony. One day the not-so-moral part of my brain is considering hiring in stack loads of D&B C4 and showing them what loud *really* is. (The last part for those that don't know me well will never happen, it's a situation I've played through in my brain a few times to make me smile...) Fact remains though unless someone wants to bless me with the budget to invest in a decent line array system, it's going to sound louder at the front than the back. That's just physics, and while I'm more than happy to talk anyone through various scientific accoustic theories of sound using pen, paper and maths, a big part of me thinks that won't be seen positively ;)
- No-one, not one, nada person that's ever asked me to turn it down unreasonably has ever taken the time to ask me why I run it at the volume that I do, other things they can do (sit further back!) if they find it too loud, asked me to explain the reasoning behind the sound or anything of the sort. If they can't be bothered to have a reasonable conversation with me about it and as far as I can see they just want things their own way, then I see no good reason to comply.
I guess the overall question here is do you agree with the above? Is there something else you think I should be considering or doing? Or am I tackling things the right way? Any other experiences / outcomes of similar situations?
"in my opinion it is never all to loud it is always something in the mix is to loud. try asking them what it is?"
I do - it's always either "just too loud" or sometimes a general male vocalist that's too loud (usually by the same individual that claims she doesn't like male people singing in the band at all!)
"it also depends on who comes to speak to me if it is someone in charge i.e. the pastor or one of the leadership i tend to do what they ask."
I agree, and would do exactly the same no questions asked. Not once has this been the case however...
"i also ask where they are sitting and try to go and stand there so i can listen to what they are listening to as they maybe hearing instruments acoustically that is over powering the mix for them"
It's usually people wandering up to me in the service so it's a bit distracting to wander around then, but I always make a point of wandering around the church while I'm setting up the mix to make sure it sounds consistent throughout.
"please remember you are there to serve the church and not to say well i am in charge of the sound today and thats how it is going to be."
This is a point I do definitely try and remember, despite how I might come across I neither enjoy nor want to push people complaining aside and I'm certainly not someone who revels in the fact certain people don't want me to do things the way I'm doing. I would love to please everyone in the congregation with regards to sound, but in reality it just won't happen. From talking to people both in the leadership and the congregation I know there's a large chunk that are more than happy with the sound when I do it and are as fed up as I am of certain others complaining...
hi there michael,
tricky subject and a very common thing to encounter in churches sadly.
i think negative feedback from a member of the congregation needs to be weighed up with the things you had been saying ie
1. Does this person often complain about various things?
2. Does this person often complain about this specific thing ie volume?
3. Do the leadership agree with the complaint?
if it was me i would probably just try and be polite and say 'ok thanks i'll see what i can do?' if someone asks me to turn it down. and if i thought its fine then leave it.
also does the person in question think that the drums are the main problem? often this is the case, which unless the drums are electric or miked up then you cant do much about.
one thing a previous sound engineer said to me about this issue is, normally 3 people approach him after a service about the sound, person 1. says it was too loud person 2 says it was too quiet person 3. says it was just right!!
God bless,
Gav.
ps the other thing to bear in mind is to try and see it from their point of view, it maybe that to them it seems too loud, so we need to show love to people and listen to their points even if we dont always agree.
gav.
In my experience, "it's too loud" can be loosely translated to "I don't like the sound". This can be for any number of reasons, most of which involve some variant of personal musical tastes. If it were me, I'd continue along the path you've chosen, but perhaps being a little more careful with my wording. There's absolutely no harm in sticking to your guns if you're genuinely right (serving the congregation doesn't mean pandering to them, after all) but you don't want to come across as rude or obnoxious.
Hi Gavin,
Thanks very much for your thoughts - it is unfortunately very common and it's not a great thing to have to deal with!
"if it was me i would probably just try and be polite and say 'ok thanks i'll see what i can do?' if someone asks me to turn it down. and if i thought its fine then leave it."
That's kind of the approach I was taking up until now, and I do wonder if it's possibly the best one. The only reason why I swapped is because in all honesty I feel like I'm essentially lying rather than just being honest and saying up front I won't turn it down! If I did feel it was too loud then I would of course turn it down, but since I've already spent a while getting levels right before the service (and when the church is full it's slightly quieter still due to people's bodies absorbing the sound somewhat) then that's rarely the case!
"also does the person in question think that the drums are the main problem? often this is the case, which unless the drums are electric or miked up then you cant do much about."
Interestingly no, not usually - I generally find it's either too loud as a whole or it's whoever leading that's too loud (vocally) usually because I deliberately craft the mix so they cut through a bit more (which seems like the sensible thing to do personally.) I honestly think this is more of a psychological point more than anything else though, i.e. if I ask them specifically they'll just complain about the thing they can hear most prominently even if it's not actually the loudest (which usually it's not!)
"one thing a previous sound engineer said to me about this issue is, normally 3 people approach him after a service about the sound, person 1. says it was too loud person 2 says it was too quiet person 3. says it was just right!!"
Hah, sounds familiar! I daresay we have people that think all those things - and I'm very fortunate to have a good group of people around that tell me if they think it was good despite people complaining which definitely helps.
"If it were me, I'd continue along the path you've chosen, but perhaps being a little more careful with my wording. There's absolutely no harm in sticking to your guns if you're genuinely right (serving the congregation doesn't mean pandering to them, after all) but you don't want to come across as rude or obnoxious."
Thanks for the input, this is probably the route I'll take in all honesty - it does seem to come down to how things are worded a lot of the time!
double post
dB meters are not a universal solution to this by any means - as others have mentioned 'loudness' is just as much a psychoacoustic thing as a physical one - if you have a jagged mix with say too-prominent electric guitar, it will sound louder than a well-mixed smooth sound, even if the latter is actually measuring higher on a meter. However, we have found them helpful to deal with this situation as a general guide - put a meter on the desk, get your pastor to stand next to you during worship, and mix everything to what you consider is a decent level. Make a note of the average level, and use it as a rough guide for future services. Then when people complain if you're still running close to the level agreed with your pastor you can explain to them that that's the level that has been agreed as appropriate with the leadership of the church, so the solution for that person is to sit in a quieter area.
Another solution my previous church took was to draw a 'loudness map' which all the welcomers had. It was blindingly obvious to anyone with any tech knowledge that if you sat right in the front of the speakers, it would be louder than if you sat right at the back under the gallery where the sound coverage was awful, but some congregation members didn't know that until it was explained. We drew a little diagram of the church explaining which areas were louder and quieter, handed it to anyone who was concerned, and basically prohibited them from complaining about volume if they were sitting in an area marked as 'louder' - which they always were.
Hope that helps
Thanks Matt, useful points as always!
"We drew a little diagram of the church explaining which areas were louder and quieter, handed it to anyone who was concerned, and basically prohibited them from complaining about volume if they were sitting in an area marked as 'louder' - which they always were."
I like that idea... and yes, it does tend to always be the people sitting in the (obvious to many, but as you point out perhaps not to everyone) louder areas.
Regarding telling someone that you've turned it down, is dishonest and not a good fix. However, sometimes it's easier than explaining things to someone who doesn't listen, doesn't get it and won't ever get it.
We have had cases in our church where people complaining about the noise but in one case the sound engineer had left a spare mic on full which picked up the percussion and in the other case it was a parting shot from someone who had left the church and reported us to the Council out of spite. The Council guy was very happy with the volumes.
Even in the case of Sound Engineer incompetence it is IMHO totally out of order to approach the sound guy. If there's a problem the Worship Leader or Pastor should field it after the service. The Sound Team are usually volunteers and should be able to do their job without heckling. I won't do it any more because basically you don't get any appreciation.
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in my opinion it is never all to loud it is always something in the mix is to loud. try asking them what it is? it also depends on who comes to speak to me if it is someone in charge i.e. the pastor or one of the leadership i tend to do what they ask. i also ask where they are sitting and try to go and stand there so i can listen to what they are listening to as they maybe hearing instruments acoustically that is over powering the mix for them.
please remember you are there to serve the church and not to say well i am in charge of the sound today and thats how it is going to be.