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God and Suffering
16 replies
Gravatar for Yellow_Cello Yellow_Cello From St George's Leeds
21 January 2010 - 2:53pm
Hey guys, I found this page on the BBC news website today: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/8469875.stm. People have given their thoughts on the age old question of God and suffering. If you scroll right down to the bottom, the last comment by Kevin Antlitz is I think a really good answer. Just wanted to share it with you
Gravatar for larry larry From St Bernard's, Belfast
#1
26 March 2010 - 12:40pm
..."I would like to say that even though Christianity has not come up with a sufficient answer to the problem of evil, nobody has. If nobody has provided a good answer to the badness of evil, then the next question should be "what is the best answer among the insufficient ones?" Christianity provides hope and redemption in the midst of suffering and evil - suffering is not pointless. The centre of Christianity is the fact that God did not isolate himself from suffering and evil but subjected himself to it in order to ultimately defeat it and save those suffering from it. The cross of Christ does not give answers to why evil, pain, suffering, and injustice exist, but for those who believe, it provides hope, redemption, justice and ultimately meaning to both evil and life in general." Would the resurrection of Christ not be a pretty sufficient answer to evil? I can see his aim at highlighting the hope and redemption, but don't forget about the victory over evil too! Perhaps the cross does explain why suffering exists - without suffering, there would be no cross and without the cross, there would be no crown of eternal life for those who come to it. Yes it provides all of the things mentioned above, especially meaning, but it's not limited to some kind of existential reason for why we're here or how we can push through the darkest hours...it's God's way of saying "Look, I am with you, I'm in control, don't be afraid, I have triumphed." Is that a harsh criticism or does Kevin Antlitz actually sell Christ's complete answer to evil short?
Christus. Cras, hodie, semperque. http://www.facebook.com/laurencemurray
Gravatar for Matt F Matt F From The Point, Mid Sussex
#2
1 April 2010 - 8:27am
"Would the resurrection of Christ not be a pretty sufficient answer to evil? I can see his aim at highlighting the hope and redemption, but don't forget about the victory over evil too!" Hmm, not sure there. Forgive me if I am completely wrong, but that sounds like a statement that might be said by someone who hasn't endured much harsh suffering! It would be very difficult to suggest to someone who's really going through it that it's OK because "Christ has already triumphed over evil". Whilst true, that simply isn't an answer that will comfort them. Also not sure about your logic of the cross and suffering: "without suffering, there would be no cross and without the cross, there would be no crown of eternal life for those who come to it." That kinda implies that God (who loves to give gifts and crowns and eternal life) created suffering in order for Him to be able to give those. I'll think on it some more, Larry!
www.thepointchurch.co.uk
Gravatar for larry larry From St Bernard's, Belfast
#3
4 April 2010 - 2:59pm
Hey Matt, Did you get a chance to reflect on this any over the Easter weekend - a perfectly appropriate time, as it happens. I'm not sure you would have to be suffering-free or relatively unscathed in life to be able to appreciate the spiritually victorious aspect of the cross. If the cross had been inadequate in some way, perhaps Jesus would not have been able to say "It is accomplished." But there was nothing left to do to satisfy God's just anger and angry justice. Sin and death were equally overcome (within the perspective of Holy Saturday and Easter Sunday, of course - not just Good Friday alone.) Would it really be difficult to comfort or encourage suffering people by pointing to the God-man who has suffered just as they have, in all cases to an even greater extent with a greater cost and innocence? For me that's the ultimate way of saying "you're not in this on your own...." not just in terms of a best-friend or concerned neighbour feeling empathy for them, but the God of all time being intimately acquainted with their pain and anguish - as it was not just his own but all people's pain and punishment that he endured. The other topic was "does God need suffering to offer gifts?" No, but we can clearly see that even in a world that suffers, we can still receive his blessings - sometimes without any cost, sometimes in spite of great cost to ourselves or other people. Maybe I should say that Jesus had to suffer, rather than God created suffering per se - but the purpose of why suffering has to exist at all can be understood in the light of its specific role in our redemption and salvation. You could just as easily apply the same themes by replacing the word suffering with humanity - why is mankind here at all? Because it's the character in his own love story, one of many mediums used to display his greatness and glory, even when it suffers - perhaps, at its most profound.....when we suffer.
Christus. Cras, hodie, semperque. http://www.facebook.com/laurencemurray
Gravatar for Matt F Matt F From The Point, Mid Sussex
#4
5 April 2010 - 9:01pm
Hi Larry. I think we may be taling at cross purposes, although I'm enjoying the exchange. It's not that I feel the cross is in any way inadequate or incomplete in its victory. And of course it's true that Christ suffered in every way like us and that is a powerful aid to those going through trouble.

It's just that sometimes, people who are going through very testing trials will find that in their search for 'answers', they may not find a great deal of initial comfort in being directed the "victorious cross". Their head knowledge may know that ultimately, Jesus will be victorious and all things will be put right in Him, but that head knowledge may be difficult to translate into the heart as their problem continues.

I often find this whole topic comes down to your personal theology of God, His omniscience and character, and often some preconceived misunderstandings about spiritual warfare and the 'problem of evil'!

www.thepointchurch.co.uk
Gravatar for paulrobertson paulrobertson From St Silas, Glasgow
#5
5 April 2010 - 10:16pm
Just to open a can of worms... The cross IS incomplete as an answer to suffering without the resurrection. But I'd agree with Matt. People who have gone through suffering have to figure out the "answers" (and usually the answer is that there is no answer, but God is somehow still God) themselves at a deep level. Theological theories of suffering are often of little practical help. I was struck hearing Tim Keller speaking about leaving the church he was at before going to NYC. They had a going away event for him, during which time his congregation shared how he had most helped them. To his surprise not one of his sermons or any of his theological teaching was mentioned. Instead, what remembered and valued most was when he had visited people in hospital, or after a bereavment, and simply spent time with them and listened to them.
Gravatar for Matt F Matt F From The Point, Mid Sussex
#6
6 April 2010 - 7:51am
Agreed Paul, although when I was speaking about the completeness of the "cross", I did of course mean that to include the ressurection.
www.thepointchurch.co.uk
Gravatar for larry larry From St Bernard's, Belfast
#7
6 April 2010 - 1:15pm
Hmm, interesting feedback. Similar debate ongoing at Guardian comment section http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/apr/11/christianity-easter and elsewhere.

Always useful to reconsider what you take to be a given, eg: always viewing the cross in the light of the empty grave (I tend to do that on auto-pilot too).

Telling point Paul, think it was St Francis who is quoted as "Preach the gospel at all times, and if necessary, use words."

Christus. Cras, hodie, semperque. http://www.facebook.com/laurencemurray
Gravatar for semper reformanda semper reformanda From unknown
#8
18 May 2010 - 5:54pm

Interesting post, i'd like to begin with a quote from Rob Hornby- "Anyone who can give a brief answer to the topic of evil and suffering probably has never experienced either. [I typed that before reading Matt's comment!]

My main problem with Kevin's point on the BBC website is that this train of thought may desensitivise us when suffering and evil does occur. We see in the story of Lazarus, Jesus being genuinely angry not standing there hopeful of a better future. In a way i'm agreeing with what Matt has already said, we should not compromise our conception of God as a loving Father who wouldn't inflict suffering on His children. The fall ultimately led to our sin and suffering which eventually ushered in the need of redemption, in that respect i agree with Larry's thoughts of Jesus' death being the sum of sin and suffering, that doesn't mean that it was God's intention to hurt us.
A more minor point is that Christianity is able to point to the fall and say "that's where it went wrong", a bigger challenge to Christianity is "God's intervened here, here and here but not here, here and here".

xox

Gravatar for Matt F Matt F From The Point, Mid Sussex
#9
18 May 2010 - 6:38pm

Semper said: "A more minor point is that Christianity is able to point to the fall and say "that's where it went wrong", a bigger challenge to Christianity is "God's intervened here, here and here but not here, here and here"."

I couldn't agree more, Semper. And that's where it can be easy to slip into the easy but ultimately unfullfilling thoughts of "blueprint" Calvinist theology: "God didn't intervene because He's teaching you a lesson", or because "there's a higher purpose to it", or "God knows what He's doing". For me, these generally don't fit with the character of God we see in the Bible or in our own lives.

www.thepointchurch.co.uk

Gravatar for semper reformanda semper reformanda From unknown
#10
19 May 2010 - 9:54am

i think that the Calvinist theology of the elected is compatible with such a view. i really couldn't agree more with the final comment. i recently read an article by L'Abri England about suffering its really worth a read, find it here -> http://www.labri.org/england/resources/05052008/MK01_Problem_of_Evil.pdf

xox