PnbllWzrd
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I currently play an epiphone Les Paul Standard through a digital multieffects unit (which I find really irritating to use) and I have a roland cube 30. Since I am forced to DI and go through the PA only I have to option of going straight out the effects unit and having the amp as a link, turned down quiet or with in ear monitors from that. Or I can go out from the cube's headphone output but sacrificing being able to hear anything from the amp itself, which is not ideal because it means I can't hear myself well. The sound team don't seem to know that electric guitars will sound better miced from and amp, but I can live with that.
The problem is, I'm getting more and more irritated with the multi effects unit and I'm considering getting rid of it and buying a delay and an overdrive or distortion for now (possibly still using the multi for other effects when I need to) but I sort of feel like there's no point in getting more pedals (at least not an OD/dist.) until I can use the amp properly as the distortion sounds great on there.
I don't know if it would be worth buying a different amp with a line out so I can DI from there and still hear out of the amp. Could use advice/solutions, thanks :)
It can be a tricky situation because although it might sound better that way it obviously increases on stage noise and that means you have to push the monitors harder which needs you need to push FoH harder - which potentially leads to complaints from people above certain age barrier which leads to unhappy sound man. I speak from experience!
Two options I'd consider if it were me and on stage wasn't an option - running the amp to a room at the back of the church and then miking it in there out the way (best option) or worst case scenario using a red box or a GI100 which are a bit better than a normal DI for this sort of thing (though no patch on a real amp.) With a bit of planning the first option shouldn't be that difficult though and is well worth it.
What MFX unit are you using. With most of the mid to low market stuff these days you be able to get tone as good/better as a mic'd cube (I also have a cube 30). If it's just that you find it difficult finding good settings try google, there's usually tonnes around.
Most of the electric guitarists I know that are particularly vehement about running through they're amps (Myself included) are that way because they get they're overdriven tone from driving the valves in their amp. To be honest I'd be surprised if the crunch tones from your cube are any better than you're MFX unit. (The cube does have pretty decent high gain sounds, but I'm guessing you don't use them too much in church?)
I'd just play around with your FX unit til you find some better sounds then run from that to be honest, no musician likes an angry sound man if they can help it...
Thanks for the advice, i'll look into other DI boxes, there isn't really a room off the side of the church for the first option.
tbh our sound team don't seem to fussed about that up to a certain level, most other keys/bass/electric guitar players use at least a linked amp to hear themselves as well as foldback monitors, and one of the other players has a large blackstar amp (which i sometimes borrow) which the signal runs straight out the back of, that tends to be pretty loud, but not so bad that people complain. It's generally facing away from the congregation as well which helps a bit. We don't exactly have a stage anyway...more a corner...and we use foldback monitors combined with people's personal amps so they can hear themselves, but the volume on the foldbacks is rolled back when the band is not playing, and people are supposed to rollback their own volumes if they use amps too. However this does mean, if an amp was miced it would pick up a lot of other peopole's signal.
Yeah the cube isn't great, it's no valve amp, but it's pretty good for a cheapish solid state, i can't really afford a valve amp, I do sometimes borrow one though :) The problem with the multi (Boss ME-25 again pretty cheap in comparison to others) isn't getting good tones from it, it's just so impractical and awkward to use in a 'live' setting. I rarely have time to set up patches beforehand, and it's inconvenient to have to cycle through loads and remember which patch is where, I find it much easier to just switch between the tones on the amp.
Will have a look at those DI boxes, unlikely to be able to afford a red box, behringer one might be a good shout though.
A few thoughts...
It might be worth talking to your techs, because if your guitarists in the band have amps on stage that are producing noise, you'll probably get a better sound through the PA by miking them up rather than taking their DI out. A lot of an electric guitarist's tone comes from the speaker in his amp, so by taking a DI out, you lose that. If there's no sound coming from the amp, then fair enough, but it seems illogical otherwise unless they don't have any mics.
The alternative is to get a modelling FX board which mimics an amp and send the output of it straight to the desk. You've probably got a basic version of this with your multiFX, but they're getting more and more sophisticated now.
So i've got a Line6 HD500, which is their flagship modeller at the mo... the real top dollar one is the Fractal Audio AxeFX. Both of those will give you some very good results by running direct to the desk, and you can monitor yourself using stage wedges or IEMs. They don't sound exactly like the amps they model, nor do they sound quite as good, but they certainly sound good enough, and fit in nicely with the band.
The advantage of my HD500 is that it is very easy to set up and edit patches with a laptop, and on the unit itself, there are several large, friendly dials with the usual Gain, Volume, Treble, Mids, Bass etc if you want to tweak anything on the fly. The sound tech should also be able to help you out from the desk there.
I did take a couple of hours one afternoon with my board plugged into our church PA setting up a few patches so I could hear it through our speakers & desk etc. I then duplicated those patches when I got home and tweaked them so I had cleaner & dirtier versions of each at the same DB level. So I have, for example, 4 different Vox AC30 amp sounds, 4 different /13 amp sounds, 4 different Dr. Z amp sounds, 4 different Marshall plexi amp sounds, and then a handful of others.
Each room you play in might be different, so I just pick the patch which sounds best in that room for the set we're doing, and tweak the EQ from the front of the board if it needs tweaking.
Very happy user here, and I am a bit of a tone snob...
I've got a couple of expensive valve amps - an Orange and a Matamp - and whilst the HD500 isn't as good, it's good enough that most people wouldn't notice the difference unless they were guitarists who'd played very nice amps before. Plus you can carry your whole rig in a gig-bag and carry-case for the modeller, and take it on the bus to church. Can't do that with an amp...
PS. My modeller was £360 when I got it. You can get one with less buttons on for less (see HD300 and HD400), but I like having the extra buttons. Imagine you could probably get some nice used deals if you looked at eBay, especially after Xmas...?
Fair enough, I've never used the ME. I'd guess it's actually got pretty much the same circuitry in it as the cube for drive sounds though.
As Joe said, If you're running sound through your amp, there is no reason not to mic it. At my church, I'm given an xlr lead to desk, and a DI box, then It's up to me how I get signal to them, I put the DI to the side and plug my mic (SM57, cheap and cheerful) in and use that. If that's a possibility, I'd advise you to spend your money on a cheapish decent mic instead of a DI.
Also, nothing wrong with a cube, used one for two years and still have it for practice, great amp for the money.
Appears I initially misunderstood somewhat - if you're using the amp anyway then as above I'd say there's no reason not to mic it.
SM57 would be the standard for this (though I'm really warming to Audix stuff and the i5 is a good alternative as well.) If you really can't spend that much have a look at Thomann's mb75 copy, chances are it'll be fine for what you're using it for and it'll definitely sound better than any DI - redbox or not.
Yeah, we have mics I can use, I'd be worried about it picking up too much of other people though, does anyone have experience with how problematic this is?
Love this post. I am sound engineer and bass player. Earn my living in sound for 35 years !! Sadly not a pro muso but have played bass for long time. Its simple and the only limit is budget. Your sound is 50% or more from the input stage of your amp and from the speakers. I have a line 6 bass pod and it was a good little unit until I found my Eden valve pre amp ! Modelling is OK but not the same as anaologue FX units but FX units dont replace a decent guitar with good pick ups, a good amp and speakers. So ........... here it is: You hve a gtr and amp and are happy with the sound. The sound guys need to mic up your cabinet to replicate YOUR sound front of house. End of story. No discussion. Its YOUR sound.
Now here is the final thing ....... IF its too loud and you cannot turn it down lower TURN your amp around to face you! Mic it up and everyone is happy. IF ITS STILL TOO LOUD then put the amp somewhere else and mic it up. [somewhere else could be another room, a large flight case, or a small acoustic box [like a drum cage but for guitars - make your own from foam and cardboard. Anything to lessen the SPILL or your sound. Of course you still need to hear yourself so you can either get the sound guys to send via foldback to you your sound, although some would want to be more in control]. If course it you are using in ears then you dont need your amp anywhere near you and it can be put somewhere where its not going to cause problems.
To PNBLLWZRD you will hardly ever have problems with a mic on an electric guitar amp picking up everyone else. With the mic just in front of the speaker grille [and off set from centre] you will get great sound and pick up only the sound of the amp and nothing else.
Finally RULE 1 of miking up an electric guitar. DONT DI electric guitars. By all means DI a bass thats different but if the sound team have enough channels and mics then mic and DI for bass and use mixture of both.
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I know many PA techs are uncomfortable mic'ing amps. Low stage noise is also a hot item these days too. You could try proposing mic'ing the amp and putting towells, or sound dampeners over the amp/mic to kill some of the stage noise. Cheap, but maybe effective.
It seems a shame to replace your cube you like the sound.
I hate multi-effects units. Some people love them, but I could never appreciate the huge breadth of options they have. I just use a delay, reverb, chorus, distortion, compressor/sustain and sometimes a tremelo. I liked the idea of buying a few pedals and tweaking them to get my sound instead. That worked for me. I appreciate multi-effects units, just not something I wanted to wrestle with. Just my irrelevant 0.02... :)
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